Dr. Claire LeBeau, Ph.D. is a therapist and professor of psychology at Seattle University with a focus on Existential Phenomenology. We jump from the idea of experiencing wonder to the meaning and impact of maternal guilt, first-time moms and working moms, and how to allow ourselves to experience our emotions rather than deny them.
Originally published Dect 14, 2018
| Transcript link (uncorrected machine translation) |
Dr. Claire LeBeau, Ph.D. is a therapist and professor of psychology at Seattle University with a focus on Existential Phenomenology. We jump from the idea of experiencing wonder to the meaning and impact of maternal guilt, first-time moms and working moms, and how to allow ourselves to experience our emotions rather than deny them.
[00:00:11] Welcome back to the I Am Virago podcast, where we get real about the struggle, drop the occasional F-bomb, and hear how amazing Virago women imperfectly navigate the world around them.
[00:00:22] Today's guest, Dr. Claire LaBeau, is a professor of psychology at Seattle
University, where she teaches ethics, philosophy and existential phenomenology at the
undergraduate master's level for therapists and training. Learn about the philosophy of
phenomenology. It's a thing, the experience of wonder and how we can process our fear and come out the other side in openness and receptivity. Grab that cup of ambition and
let's get started.
[00:00:52] I am Claire LaBeau. And to pay the bills, I am a professor at Seattle
University in the psychology department. I teach undergraduate classes and masters
level classes for therapists and training. Wow. That's some deep work, my friend. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's also a program about existential phenomenological psychology. Can you
say that word again? Existential phenomenological psychology.
[00:01:21] Could you just take a moment to explain what.
[00:01:25] It's basically philosophy applied to the field of application in psychology and
in particular its philosophy applied to the prep healing practice of training level
therapists, people who are becoming psychotherapists.
[00:01:41] And what is the basic philosophy of phenomenology?
[00:01:45] Phenomenology is the study of how things emerge. And so it's not looking at
just behavior or cognition. It's looking at the emergence of phenomena. And how is it
that we exist, basically?
[00:01:59] Could you give us a real world example?
[00:02:03] I just went to a conference that was studying human science applications for
research. And some of the really interesting stuff the Norwegians are doing is around
wonder the experience of wonder. And they actually have things called Wonder Lab.
[00:02:21] I want to go to a wonderland. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty easy.
[00:02:27] But they're looking at human experience as a good start as a whole. And so
there's certain types of experiences we have as human beings that are particular, like
the experience of wonder or or ah or you know, my mentor has studied forgiveness in
lots of different things that we all share, possibly in common as human beings. But it's
looking at the phenomena of those things and working with it at this very deep
philosophical level. So asking people to describe their experience of wonder or
exploring experiences of wonder they've had and then trying to find common ground.
[00:03:07] What seems to sort of transcend all of those experiences and once they
identify what that transcendent thing is, what is done with that?
[00:03:20] We talk about it and explore it in a fuller context. Like, for instance,
forgiveness doesn't look the same when it comes to forgiveness of oneself as it does for
other people. So you start to distinguish like where does this hold up pretty consistently
in this context? And then where does it take a different shape in this context? And why
is it harder to talk about in this way versus this other way?
[00:03:48] This is fascinating and fascinating work and you are clearly extremely
passionate about it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And how long have you been following this
path?
[00:03:58] I think since I was probably a kid, but I started studying phenomenology as
an undergrad at Duquesne University. The philosophy classes I was taking there just
changed my life. Other psychology classes as well. And I knew that I wanted to be a
healer. So I went to Seattle you to study that in the master's program where I'm now
teaching. And that really set up a path for me in terms of the movement of my thought
and my heart, as well as a call for what I'm supposed to do in this life.
[00:04:35] And then you went on from your master's and you earned your paycheck.
Yeah. So really, we should be calling you Dr. LaBeau, right?
[00:04:44] That's just because I don't own a pantsuit.
[00:04:47] All right. All right. So. So, Dr. LaBeau, how do you feel about that?
[00:04:51] When I'm teaching, it matters, I think, in terms of getting the street cred. And
as a woman, it sometimes matters a lot to be considered a doctor.
[00:05:02] Well, and this was like you did this in a couple of years. This has been a
lifelong pursuit, right?
[00:05:07] Yeah. And that was basically just curiosity you that was insatiable and
continues to be.
[00:05:13] And that was something that, as you were speaking about this area, that
there's always something to explore and discover.
[00:05:20] Yeah, it's endless in worlds upon worlds are opened up continuously.
[00:05:25] And so you never stop being curious. Yeah. That sounds beautiful. What was
your dissertation topic? The experience of maternal guilt with first time mothers?
[00:05:37] Well, that's a that's a light topic. If no one wanted to talk to no one wanted to
touch my mic. Baked goods to faked.
[00:05:47] Ok. So there's a hot tip for those that if you need if you need something. Do
something for you. Baked goods. Unlikely. Can you summarize your findings?
[00:05:57] The experience of guilt seems to be pretty familiar, but it also has different
connotations for us growing up. We often feel guilt in different ways.
[00:06:09] So a lot of the participants would say, oh, you should talk to my mother as
they get older clinic about maternal guilt. You simply like a guilt trip with the brochure
and the points of interest.
[00:06:22] But the guilt that we're talking about with them, I really had to do with the
experience of feeling guilt related to being a mother, but having done nothing wrong.
And so what we ended up talking about is this really deep feeling of being responsible
for another person and where we absolutely are very much tied together and the stakes
are very high. And so therefore, because it's so deep and meaningful, it feels like you
could always get it.
[00:06:57] And that matters.
[00:06:59] The responsibility is so heavy that you're never hitting 100 percent.
[00:07:03] Right. Right. And that's come in straight to the love you feel for your child.
[00:07:10] Wait, hold up. So the more you love your child, the more guilt you feel. Often
it seems to be part and parcel of. So I think my mom loves me a lot, but it doesn't
always look the same.
[00:07:23] You know, I mean, especially the feminist part of this is that mothers are
ambivalent. So we both want to be mothers, but we also want to have our own
existence in our own lives. So that can be guilt inducing. And so how do you work that
out when the world tells you that mothers have to behave in a certain kind of way? And
so you look to the culture and the community to instruct you about what motherhood is.
But there is no clear indication of what that means personally for each mother.
[00:07:54] So is there. Did you find or have you explored different levels of guilt with
stay at home moms versus working mothers?
[00:08:03] Well, I mean, those are both different contexts, but the feelings are often very
similar. That feeling of doubt and insecurity and wondering if I'm messing this up is true
across the board.
[00:08:16] So for working moms, they're not feeling or experiencing more or deeper guilt
than stay at home moms.
[00:08:24] Not necessarily. You know, I mean, it's not a formula, but it's really about
being a mom, about being a first time mom, especially when you just first arrive on the
scene and you're trying to figure out what are the parts of this and who are EMI within
this day.
[00:08:40] This dang some heavy stuff. Dr. Claire, so it sounds like this guilt is there no
matter what you do.
[00:08:50] But are there ways in which women can lessen that feeling of guilt?
[00:08:55] I don't know if it's about lessening it, but actually allowing you to instruct you.
And so that's true for all of the emotional life. And so we have compartmentalized and to
like positive emotions and negative emotions. And I'm not sure how helpful those
dichotomies are. So when you're angry, you're angry probably for a good reason. And
so instead of rejecting it, annihilating it, denying it, making sure that it it gives you some
information like that emotion that you feel actually has something to teach you about
who you are in relationship to, what is informing.
[00:09:35] So the guilt isn't a bad thing necessarily. It's it's providing you information.
And then to deny it is is to deny that information. Right.
[00:09:45] Right. And the thing that we often reach into, which is not really hopeful, is
like, I feel guilty. I must have done something wrong. Therefore I am wrong and I'm a
bad person, which is not true. I mean, that sort of progression of thinking is often how
we sabotage ourselves.
[00:10:04] It sounds like, you know, in my coaching practice, I ask my clients to journal
often about these fence. It sounds like that might be a way to tap into these feelings and
turn in on it and think about it.
[00:10:16] Absolutely. Being you would have in conversation with yourself, which is a
dialogue or a receptivity to it that allows it to exist and be there rather than having an
antagonistic sort of viewpoint and jettisoning are big portions of our emotional life, which
is not very helpful, not very helpful to hear first from Dr. Claire.
[00:10:39] Not very helpful. All right.
[00:10:41] I want to move a sense to questions about your career and how it's
progressed for you. So I know you were you were telling me before we start. According
to that, you were just at a seminar presenting some of your research. Right. What was
that experience like for you?
[00:10:58] That was wonderful. So I my research partner and I, Aileen Webster, she and
I have been working for the last three years on the experience of vulnerability between
first time parent couples. We ask them to write about it, experience, and then share the
embodied reflection that they have with each other. And so what is embodied reflection
is so a lot of people talk about it as mindfulness. This is a little bit different. It's not
necessarily a meditation practice, but it's called focusing. And basically it's about sort of
considering. And it really even way where particular experiences live in our bodies and
what those places in our bodies sort of can teach us about how they set up for us. So if
we have, like a back pain in particular kinds of ways, that could be a sort of an injury or
it could be a seat of particular tensions that we've gathered or accumulated in our
bodies. And those areas of our bodies are actually teaching us something. And so being
able to bring our attention or awareness into them allows them in really even gentle
way. Tell us what they're holding. And being able to sort of be in conversation with that
and allow to instruct you, allows you to sort of tap into an experience and allow more
than words normally can say. Yeah, yeah. And then also in doing that and conveying
that to a partner, help them know how it is for you. And therapists and healers know, as
you know, like that when we're able to be vulnerable, we're able to be the most present
to ourselves and allow allow a lot of outpouring of love and support from ourselves and
our community to combat that.
[00:12:56] That sounds like a nice professional win that you just had.
[00:12:59] I keep joking a little bit that we cheated just shooting for a vulnerability
because it's like getting to the end rather than talking about anything else in between.
[00:13:10] We just went for a vulnerability.
[00:13:12] So thank you. So let's bring it down. You've got this wonderful life that you
have worked very hard to create for yourself. But is there a professional personal
struggle that you're dealing with right now?
[00:13:28] You know, I think you and I talked about this, you know, the context in the
world, which tends to be so foreclosing and antagonistic in general. The context of the
reactivity in the world really gives rise to a great deal of cynicism, which is a defensive
attribution process. And that defensiveness makes sense, but it also closes down
opportunities for understanding. And that is something that we constantly have to reach
through to be able to sort of talk to each other. And so I the personal struggle I'm having
right now is that we've developed important defensive structures, but those often
foreclose our ability and our capacity to reach beyond those defenses.
[00:14:21] So set in other words, you even you, with all of your training, are finding it
difficult to keep the cynicism at bay and working through it and pass it to remain open
and vulnerable and wanting to reach out with love.
[00:14:38] Right. It becomes much more concentrated and desperate because it's
needed all the more. And so you have to accelerate it in response so that sometimes
can feel reactive rather than responsive.
[00:14:56] And I'm also hearing you say that it's perfectly okay for those defenses to
come up because they are there to protect you. You just need to recognize that they're
there and be in choice on how you deal with them.
[00:15:09] Well, defenses are important because it means there's something worthy of
protection, but it's trying to understand what is it that I'm actually afraid of? And what
does that do that that preserves me. But also what does that do? That shuts down my
ability to move in to openness and receptivity.
[00:15:30] What I'm hearing underlying this is the deep importance of staying present,
an open present and open. Yeah. So talking about this work that you're doing and your
your struggle through avoiding staying in cynicism and fear. What are some things that.
You're working on personally, I'm an empath.
[00:15:54] And so when I move in through spaces, my heart goes first and sometimes I
can't say I'm always prepared for what it receives in funds. And so that's the work of
trying to hold as precious, that kind of movement, but also to sort of understand how to
work with what's mine and what other peoples and how my hopeful in this moment, how
am I not hopeful in this moment?
[00:16:27] And so the growing edge is constantly to be able to increase our receptivity
without necessarily, you know, becoming completely flooded and flawed all the time.
[00:16:40] And that's something that you are continuously practicing.
[00:16:45] Absolutely. I mean, I don't think we're ever done with that.
[00:16:48] I am definitely a lot better than when I was in my early 20s. But it's still like
the contours of that change shape are pretty much consistent. We like when especially
around grief. You know, I've lost some folks in the last few years that were very
important guides for me.
[00:17:09] And I miss them terribly. So the grief work that I have around them, you
know, is, you know, gosh, I wish I would have asked more questions while they were
alive. I wish I would have known more of the shape of of that while I could ask them still.
But that doesn't mean that I'm not still in conversation with them. So those lessons are
continuing to be taught and I continue to move through. Grief is an important structure.
Grief is something that we're in all the time in some ways. But it's it's maybe not in the
acute phase.
[00:17:51] Yeah. Yeah. So you talked about these mentors that you've lost. Do you find
that you're moving into that mentoring space for others?
[00:18:02] Yeah. I've never been able to understand sort of the shape of. But I don't
think I need to actually. I just have to be who I am. And we want to. I had a student who
told another teacher, Claire is one of the most excruciating we compassion.
[00:18:22] I was like, huh? Yes, it can be excruciating.
[00:18:28] So I don't know what that means in terms of the work that I do. I don't know
how I'm always received, but I do know that I have to be who I know. Yeah. And so I
don't necessarily get to choose how that is taken up.
[00:18:45] That is the truth we read. We don't get to control how people receive us.
Yeah. All we can do is be in choice in how we are there. So for young women going into
the workforce, what advice might you have for them?
[00:19:00] I would say don't let anyone take you out. Like, don't let them objectified you
or don't receive the object. I mean, don't let them do that to you, but don't take that on
for yourself. Like you are more than any classification or category could ever hold.
Whether it's women or men or anyone but but especially young women historically have
been given a particular lot around, you know, their objective selves. I encourage women
to not ever buy into those systems for themselves. But there is actually nothing that
holds them. There is nothing that holds them back or holds them down. And so don't
ever apologize. Don't lead with apology. I mean, and I say this as someone had to learn
that the hard way. I mean, I worked for years. I would start out every conversation with
I'm sorry. You know, I've had to really learn how to not do that. And so I would
encourage women that are starting out to be themselves and to invest in what does the
contours of their own personhood look like without that coming as an impingement from
the outside, but something that comes from the inside out. And for them to find their
own natural beauty.
[00:20:30] And I see that as the substance of their soul, not as the contour of their flesh.
It's not the wrapper. Right. So this is the I Am Virago podcast. What makes you a
farrago, Claire?
[00:20:43] I guess in my life, I've been someone who is ethical and so. I don't think of it
philosophically or theoretically, I think of it in terms of how do you live each moment in
terms of ethics. So that's something that's always on the table for me. And the
philosophy I teach, which is no longer just a philosophy but an actual lifestyle, is that I
am not the source. It comes to me from outside of me. And if I can remain open enough
and receptive enough and vulnerable enough, then I can actually be taught continuously
throughout my life.
[00:21:30] There is also what I see in you, a deep strength. And you are a mother and a
wife, an amazing friend. And there is just a deep, deep strength that comes from
everything that you just described.
[00:21:49] I am very excited because I have my first interview guest that I've made cry.
[00:21:56] And that was my goal. Thank you, Barbara Walters.
[00:22:00] Oprah is so clear on where we're coming up to the end of the interview.
[00:22:08] And is are there any questions that you wish I would have asked that I didn't?
[00:22:13] I guess the only thing that I think is really important right now is at the same
time as all of this stuff is going on is just where do you find joy? And truly, it's just been
so lucky to be able to feel it's silliness and play. And the feeling of joy, that is a great
place to end.
[00:22:42] Thank you so much, Dr. Clair, for being a part of the I Am Virago podcast. It
has been a true gift to have you. Thank you so much.
[00:22:53] Thank you, my Viragos, for listening to the I Am Virago podcast. Check out new episodes every Tuesday. If you have ideas or suggestions of whom you'd like to hear from on this podcast, go to IAmVirago.com and leave a message. And remember, you are Virago.