Elizabeth Hunter dreamed of running Vogue magazine until she realized she wanted to MAKE stuff, not report on it. Driven, wicked smart and no-nonsense, Elizabeth is now a Vice President in the Digital Technology and Development group at T-Mobile. Hear her give some no bulls!*t advice about being stubborn, the importance of mentorship, navigating career options, and how being scared is a good sign.
Originally published Aug 22, 2018
Elizabeth Hunter dreamed of running Vogue magazine until she realized she wanted to MAKE stuff, not report on it. Driven, wicked smart and no-nonsense, Elizabeth is now a Vice President in the Digital Technology and Development group at T-Mobile. Hear her give some no bulls!*t advice about being stubborn, the importance of mentorship, navigating career options, and how being scared is a good sign.
Janice Lichtenwaldt: [00:00:09] Welcome back to the I Am Virago podcast, where we get real about the struggle. Drop the occasional F-bomb and hear how amazing virago women imperfectly navigate the world around them.
[00:00:19] Today's guest, Elizabeth Hunter, is a vice president in the Digital Technology and Development Group at T-Mobile. Here, how this remarkable woman went from being an executive assistant degree in English to leading on the cutting edge of technology in the wireless industry today. She openly discusses her career challenges, her comfort in saying, "I don't know". And the importance of paying it forward.
[00:00:44] So grab that cup of ambition and let's get started.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:00:49] I am Elizabeth Hunter and to pay the bills I am a vice president in our digital technology and development group here at T-Mobile. And my passion. It varies, but it always centers around helping other people be more successful either in there in their careers, or their lives, or working with other people.
JL: [00:01:04] Thank you. On behalf of the world for doing that work. Tell me a little bit about what your day to day looks like at T-Mobile.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:01:12] Well, it's changed recently. We, as you might have heard, are looking to acquire Sprint. And while that deal hasn't closed yet and won't for a while, there's a lot of preplanning and integration work that goes on. And so I am responsible for doing that, not just for our digital technology and dev group, but also across the company from an overall integration perspective.
JL: [00:01:36] That's a- that's a pretty sizable job, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:01:39] It is. I've done it before, spent about eight years of my career, actually doing merger integration planning. And it's one of my favorite things to do. I can be excited.
JL: [00:01:47] I can see your eyes are twinkling with this and it's so complex. What draws you to this kind of work?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:01:53] Well, I really am only interested in things that don't exist or all fucked up because once I figured something out, I really don't want to do it anymore. And the thing about working a merger integration is, well, there's certain similarities between all deals. They're wildly different in terms of scale or scope or complexity or what kind of assets you're buying or what kind of problems you have to deal with. And so I haven't gotten to work on one in a while, so I'm really excited to get back to it.
JL: [00:02:20] What skills do you think are necessary to be successful in a position like this?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:02:26] One of the most important skills to have is the comfort with ambiguity and then the ability to take things that are highly ambiguous and sort through them in order to get to a plan. And it's not just you sorting through them. It's helping other people, at all levels of your organization, sort through them as well and managing the conflict that comes out of it. So you have to be able to think about things in both a very strategic way, as in what is the strategy that we're trying to get to? What are the goals of the acquisition that you're doing- all the way down into, How do I help people sort through that?
[00:02:59] There's also the people aspect to it of how do I help people to the emotional curve of what's going to happen with my organization. What is it being for me specifically? Because all of those things color how people process what has to happen and it impacts the directions that they might want you to take.
JL: [00:03:14] There is an important word in their conflict and it seems like this type of work would be pretty rich with conflict.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:03:23] It can be. Yes.
JL: [00:03:24] How do you approach that?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:03:26] When I first got into this kind of work, I was more a hammer. And what a very wise boss that I worked for at the time said, "Well, you can be a hammer and it'll get things done. But you're not actually managing the conflict. You're just forcing the nail into the wood and it often will only work once". What's so more of what I do now is I try to identify what I think the conflict is. Discuss it so everybody is at least on the same page about the problem that we're trying to solve and then present a set of options about how to solve it. And leave the door open, that the solution might not be something that I have thought of. And if you've worked in a large organization or even in some small organization, you usually don't get to resolve those things in one meeting. Sometimes there's pre-socialization. Sometimes you need to attack the same thing three different ways, depending on your audience. Sometimes you have to have the same meeting three times to get people there. It depends on your culture. So you really have to understand how your culture works and what are the problems that are likely to come out of it. What are the things going on behind the scenes and then try to walk people through it?
JL: [00:04:33] What I'm also hearing here is some patience.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:04:37] Or a lot of patience, because even though you think something is so clear or you think you are so right. It doesn't really matter if people aren't able to hear that or hear the set of options and get there themselves.
JL: [00:04:51] So here's a hot button question. Telecom in tech in general is a more male-dominated industry. You're in a very senior position within T-Mobile and in a very aggressive part of the organization. Acquisition, integration. Do you feel that you being a woman, has had any impact on how you've had to navigate through all of the politics?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:05:15] Well, sure. I mean, I'd love to tell you no, but of course, I show up. I wear a dress. I have heels on. I put on makeup. You know, they kind of know that I'm a girl. But people interpret that question. And I think their immediate response is that it's always something you have to overcome. And while there have certainly been times in my career where I had to overcome being a woman, but they weren't at T-Mobile. They were at other companies. And, you know, you sort through that in the best way that you know how. But the key thing that I have been always consistent about is staying calm, staying factual, and then figuring out what's the other thing that I need to do to help the situation.
[00:05:52] I also found over the years that I can use being female to my advantage because most men are uncomfortable talking about something related to emotion or feeling that's playing into whatever decision they've got to make or however they are reacting to something. And what I found, especially in a smaller group setting or a one on one setting, is by saying, "You know what, I feel like there might be something else going on. Are you doing okay? Like, is there something else I can help you with? Like I heard such and such. Is this bothering you?" And because I'm a woman and therefore they're less afraid to talk to me or be afraid to be vulnerable. I've used that an awful lot and I continue to use that now with both men and women to help people get to where they need to be. This is probably not the right word to use, but it's kind of like the art of manipulation. It's just what's going on with somebody that is influencing what they're doing and not allowing them to hear and process and understand.
JL: [00:06:49] But what I'm also hearing is that it's not just for you to get what you need, but you're also trying to help them come along as well.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:06:56] The best in any situation is for both people to be winners. I'm not going to lie and tell you, it always works out like that. And sometimes I'm not the winner. Or sometimes I understand that I actually won but it didn't actually take until, you know, a month or a year down the line. But, yeah, it's always better if everybody comes out feeling good about what's happening.
JL: [00:07:15] And what you just described to is diversity. And how diversity can help a company be successful more quickly, even because if you can get people to start talking about those soft skills, the feelings, the emotions that are there, [They're there!] And you get them to talk about it. You're just you're helping to move things along faster. Yeah.
JL: [00:07:34] So this podcast is about helping to inspire and encourage women out there fighting the good fight. Can you tell us about a recent professional or personal win?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:07:45] Sure. So the role that I was in before I stepped into the merger integration role encompassed a whole bunch of things. But one of the primary things that it encompassed was managing our department's relationship with the business. So business has lots more ideas than we have the ability or money to do them. So managing those two very bipolar sets of objectives is a source of conflict in any organization.
[00:08:14] At T-Mobile, when I took that over two and half years ago, it was conflicted to the point of yelling and screaming in meetings. People had kind of entrenched in their positions and weren't really listening to each other and honestly didn't really care why something was hard on either side. And it took me well over a year to get people on both sides back to just listening and not blaming and not yelling. And so it's not perfect, but we have a much better working relationship between our business and technology groups now. And when I stepped into it, I actually told my boss I felt like I was being hazed because it was so bad.
JL: [00:08:52] And how do you think you got there?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:08:56] Well, I'm nothing if not stubborn. And so most of it was persistence and a lot of it was well, that they sucked. I got to pick myself back up and figure out a different approach or I know this is what we need to do. I need to figure out another angle of attack. There were days where I needed a hug and there were days when things went great and I needed to remember to celebrate them. But it was really keep in mind the long term prize, and not dwelling on my particular successes or failures on a daily basis.
JL: [00:09:26] Wise words. So as listeners of this podcast know, I like to go low at this point. Can you tell us about a struggle that you've been dealing with, either professionally or personally?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:09:42] Sure. I was working at a different company at the time, and it was about the time when you go back in your head and remember what it was like to not have text messaging and not have any data on your phone at all? It was about that time. And so we were starting to roll out both of those sets of technologies. And I worked in an I.T. organization but I also owned a lot of the product rollout for that. And I had to work really closely with the engineering group who I liked a lot. Except for this one guy, he didn't like me much either. And going back to me being stubborn, he was just as stubborn. And we did not often see eye to eye. And even when we did, sometimes we took the counterpoint just because we really didn't like each other. And I got into a situation where we were in a large forum of people from other companies as well. We were basically just having a screaming match in front of them. And it was one of those times where you have this little like The Good Angel on your shoulder that's looking down on you, being like, what on earth are you doing? But then on my shoulder had, you know, the Devil that was like, "But he's wrong, and I'm right, and I hate him".
JL: [00:10:48] Right.
Elizabeth Hunter:[00:10:49] So we never actually settle the argument in the meeting, but what happened was now he and I both have a public reputation of not getting along and it's making our company look bad. So I get called into my boss's office. He gets called into his boss's office. And now we have- we've caused a company issue. And I was mortified, not just at the situation, but that I hadn't had the foresight to understand what was happening and that I couldn't control myself in the moment to not allow that to happen. Even if it meant that he appeared that he was right for that short period of time. It was demoralizing. And I was really disappointed in myself. It was embarrassing. It took me a good six months to recover from that, just personally, like I didn't trust myself as much. I questioned my decisions. I questioned my behavior. I probably backed off on some things that I shouldn't have. I had to kind of earn some trust back with my boss.
[00:11:48] And then I had to find situations to be out in public where I could show that I wasn't this crazy harpy who was just screaming at people in meetings. So it taught me a lot about situational awareness, making sure you keep your eye on what's important long term. And then how do I manage myself better.
JL: [00:12:07] Self management. Yeah. So important and sometimes so difficult. When you look back now. So this was knowing how long you've been at T-Mobile. Some time ago.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:12:16] Yes. About 18 years ago.
JL: [00:12:18] Yes. So a long time ago. What would today's Elizabeth tell that Elizabeth, about how to recover faster?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:12:26] The primary thing that I would tell them is to figure out what you needed to learn about the situation, forgive yourself and move on. There are certain things you can't control. I can't control how long it takes for somebody else to change their mind about me. But the things that I can't control, I need to focus on those. And what held me up so much was really beating myself up for what I had done. And it's easy to say and it's hard to do. But if somebody came to you, if they had that situation, say you were their boss and they apologized and they acknowledged what they had done wrong and they told you what they were gonna do next to make that right. The chances of you forgiving them were pretty high, especially if this was not a repeated pattern of behavior. So why was it so hard for me to do that for myself? That's what I would tell myself.
JL: [00:13:09] So today in your role- my belief that we're always working on improving certain skills- is there a skill right now that you're focusing on and doing work to improve or better understand yourself?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:13:23] Yes. So one of the things I'm really excited about working on this deal is there are a certain number of super high level like 10,000-foot things that we have to achieve the goal. But even the strategy around how we're going to get there is yet to be defined. So that's some of the things that I'm planning to focus on. And it really stretches me not just to figure out what are those strategies, but not get caught up in the "Well, but how would I execute it?" Because it kind of limits your creativity.
JL: [00:13:48] Absolutely. Tactically, practically, what are you doing to try to stretch yourself into that more strategic thinking space?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:13:56] Well, I like to read. And so one of the things that I tend to do when I'm trying to learn about something is I go buy bunch books and I talk to people that have done it. So I've spent more time with our strategy office here at T-Mobile who are really, really smart. Like the books I read aren't like how to be a strategic thinker. Like I hate those kinds of books. It's more about how to exercise creativity in general. One of the books I didn't actually buy, I went back to this book I've had for, I can't remember how long, it's called The Artist's Way. [Yes.] And it has some really interesting exercises in it that push you. It's not linear in its application, but it kind of got me back to that. That's how I can be creative and that is how I stop obsessing over the execution aspect or the how do I do it. Just the, what are the possibilities?
JL: [00:14:44] What I think I'm hearing you say is not only are you going to books and learning, but you're actually reaching out and asking questions and asking for help. You're showing vulnerability and saying, "I'm not an expert in this yet and I want to be. Will you help me?"
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:15:01] Something I got comfortable with a long time ago as being the person in the room that said, hey, I don't understand that, or I have no idea what I'm talking about, or that does not make sense to me. More often than not, by a factor of like 7 bazillion, you get the "Oh, thank God somebody else is asking that". Or the like, "Oh yeah. I didn't get that either." And so it just doesn't bother me to ask. You can't learn if you don't ask.
JL: [00:15:25] Amen. I know that you started out your career not in technology. So what is your degree in?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:15:33] English and graphic design.
JL: [00:15:34] How did you start in the technology industry?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:15:37] When I went to college, I wanted to run Vogue magazine. I wanted to be Anna Wintour. And so I thought that a good way to accomplish that would be to get a dual major in journalism and graphic design. I was on the paper in high school and, you know, I've always liked art and things like that. And I got to the beginning, my junior year of high school. And as I mentioned, I like to read. So I was reading a book about journalists and it said, do you want to do things or do you want to write about the things that other people do? And I had this liminal moment. What a shit. Well, I don't want to write about the things that other people do. I want to do things. Unfortunately, I had no idea what that thing was anymore. So I decided to keep my graphic design degree because it was just fun to draw and poke around. And I thought, well, I'll get an English degree because again, I like to read and then go to law school later. So I got all the way through school. I took the LSAT.
[00:16:30] I applied to law school. I got in. And then I went, wow, I'm really tired of being at school. I'm going to take a year off. And then I went, oh, shit, I gotta pay my rent. And so one of my friends who worked at a temp agency found me a job as a temp secretary because that's what they were called back then to a new director in an I.T. department at a power company. After a couple of weeks, he calls me into his office and he says, "Why are you here?" And I am thinking, oh, God, I'm going to get fired. He's figured out that I'm not a secretary.
[00:16:58] So I explained to him, I said a little tale of woe. Well, he said, well, you're clearly could do more. Why are you interested in working in I.T.? And I said no. And luckily, he says, why? Instead of just telling me to get the hell out. And I said, well, you know, I've taken some little programming classes when I was a kid and I made the ball bounce across the screen or whatever. But once I figured out how to code something, I didn't really want to do it anymore. And repeatability is kind of an important skill as a programmer. He says, well, you know, you can do other things other than programming. I had no idea. And so he said, OK, well, why don't we start showing you some of that? And so he hired me as his Chief of Staff. And so I did have to program some. But I was surprised it was a little more interesting than I thought. But I learned a whole bunch of other things.
[00:17:45] I learned about managing relationships with business partners. I learned about managing a budget. And I learned about how do you design something in a way that what the customer wants is actually sort of close to what you can give them. How do you do testing of something? And there's all the architecture, which was fascinating. There's all these other things. And that is how I got into technology. And then I proceeded to follow him into the wireless industry a couple of years later where I've been for the past 20 years. And here I am.
JL: [00:18:15] And here you are. So playing off that. What advice would you have for young women just starting their careers today?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:18:22] What I always advise people is to figure out what you don't want to do. I really admire people who've always wanted to be a thing for a really long time. I have a cousin who knew he wanted to be a doctor from the time he was about 10. And by the time he was 12, he knew he wanted to be a cardiologist. And then by the time he's 14, he wanted to be a Research Cardiologists And sure enough, that's exactly the path that his career took. And he was immensely successful. But most people I know aren't like that. Just about every adult I know still is kind of wondering what they would like to be when they grow up. And so what I tell people at any stage of their career is just figure out the things that you don't want to do because then you're left with a pool of things that you could do. And it can change over time, but it's easier to focus in that way. And then you're not so heartbroken if the one thing that you thought you wanted to do doesn't work out because you've got other things that you can be interested in.
JL: [00:19:13] Well, in variety, like early on, try many different things. I mean, look at your career and how it went. You got a taste for these different things and you were able to narrow down and move towards the things that you wanted to do.
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:19:24] Yeah. If you're lucky enough to be able to find a role that gives you some perspective across more than one type of work or more than one department in a company that is so valuable, not just because you will understand how things fit together, but sometimes that's what you need to go, “Oh, I thought it was interesting. But that blows. So no thanks.”
JL: [00:19:42] I love your straight talk. So again, this is the I Am Virago podcast. And so, Elizabeth, what makes you virago?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:19:51] What drives me is learning and not getting bored in something. And so you have to have comfort with ambiguity. You have to have comfort with being uncomfortable. And what I tell people an awful lot these days is don't be afraid to be afraid. That's what holds you back. And if all you do is sit there and obsess about why you can't do something, that's not going to happen for you. And so I actively look for things that strike the right balance of being interesting and scary. And I find anymore that if I'm not scared, I'm probably not pushing myself hard enough. But you don't need to let everybody know that you're afraid. People don't need to know all the things all the time.
JL: [00:20:28] Very good advice. So what question do you wish I would have asked?
Elizabeth Hunter: [00:20:34] Yes. So I was really fortunate early in my career to have people that saw something in me. Sometimes I saw that thing in me and sometimes I didn't. And so I feel both indebted to those people in that I should pay it back and forward. But also I look back and I've seen so many times where if somebody hadn't seen something in me or hadn't pushed me, that I wouldn't have taken that opportunity, or even thought about it necessarily. And so I spend a lot of time through mentoring, through my work with Women's Leadership Network and our Women in Technology group, and attending conferences, talking primarily about what's possible and that you aren't the only person that is feeling this way. And that just because one shitty thing happened, or a series of a few things that you did does not define you or your experience or what's possible for you. And it's been really, really rewarding. And something that, I mean, frankly, is my favorite thing to do. I know that at some point throughout my day, I will talk to somebody that, you know, I can give some advice to, and that'll probably be my favorite part of the day.
Janice Lichtenwaldt: [00:21:40] I know I've benefited from your work. So thank you very much. Elizabeth Hunter, T-Mobile V.P..
[00:21:48] Thank you, Viragos, for listening to the I Am Virago podcast. Check out new episodes every Tuesday. If you have ideas or suggestions, if you'd like to hear from on this podcast, go to IAmVirago.com and leave a message. And remember, you are a Virago.