Serial entrepreneur Joleen Winther Hughes began her career in Seattle as a band manager, booking agent, and rock promoter. She secretly studied for the LSAT, applied and got accepted into law school, and then founded Hughes Media Law Group. She also hosts the podcast The Lawyer Who Rocks interviewing powerful business professionals at the intersection of music, technology, and media. Get great advice about entering into partnerships, learn why avoiding litigation is always preferable, and be inspired by a powerhouse lady!
Originally published Jan 15, 2019
Transcript link (uncorrected machine translation)
Serial entrepreneur Joleen Winther Hughes began her career in Seattle as a band manager, booking agent, and rock promoter. She secretly studied for the LSAT, applied and got accepted into law school, and then founded Hughes Media Law Group. She also hosts the podcast The Lawyer Who Rocks interviewing powerful business professionals at the intersection of music, technology, and media. Get great advice about entering into partnerships, learn why avoiding litigation is always preferable, and be inspired by a powerhouse lady!
[00:00:09] Welcome back to the I Am Virago podcast, where we get real about the struggle, drop the occasional F-bomb, and hear how amazing Virago women imperfectly navigate the world around them.
[00:00:20] Music has always played an important role in my life. The first woman I met
who actually worked in music and therefore set an example of what was possible was
Joleen with our cues. A chance meeting a few weeks ago brought us back together after
nearly 30 years. She inspired me then and inspires me now. After a decade of fan
management and music promotion, Joleen made a career pivot, earned her law degree
and founded Hughes Media Law Group, a business and media law firm focused on
startups, entertainment and technology. Jolene is a fierce champion for women and an
all around bad us, and she got great advice for us all. So grab that cup of ambition and
let's get started.
[00:01:01] My name is Joleen Winther Hughes, and I am an owner of a really cool law
firm in Seattle and I am a serial entrepreneur and former rock aficionado, bad manager
and promoter here in Seattle.
[00:01:14] Oh, interesting.
[00:01:16] So you know that I do know that for every Felicity I have known Jolene since
I believe nineteen ninety don't really that why it is really that long. I remember I saw a
band you were managing and my very first weekend of college when I moved and it was
the very first band I'd ever seen live. First plot first that bus.
[00:01:40] I know. And there you know, they were, they were just in the wrong genre at
the wrong time. I think jazz grunge kind of took over and poor first thought or so, Poppy.
Yeah. And they got lost in the shuffle, but they were amazing.
[00:01:55] I di I just love that band. And so I got to know Jillian through that and moved
on into music myself and radio and and then escaped. But it sounds like you've stayed
sort of true to that line of work. Can you talk a little bit more about your law firm?
[00:02:11] Sure. Well, to coin your phrase, to pay the bills. I provide managed legal
services to a lot of amazingly cool clients and the intersection of technology, media and
entertainment. And I am really passionate about it. I'm passionate about changing how
law is practiced. So what that means is that I've set up my firm in a way that allows us to
interact and work as an executive branch of companies and be there in-house counsel,
not just general counsel, but in-house counsel, get involved on all levels and learn about
not only do business with technology about their intellectual property and then help
guide them as one of their executive teams, just like chief legal officer. Well, so it's
awesome. It's so fun.
[00:02:59] Oh, and how long have you been doing this work? Over two decades.
[00:03:04] I can say that's great. I went to law school as a second career.
[00:03:07] And when I was in the middle of law school, a friend of mine was working at
this company that invented some weird technology that allowed you to do what we're
doing right now, which is stream on the Internet. And it was audio only. And I went and
met with their one lawyer who also had been a former rock promoter only in Chicago.
And we hit it off. And I had work study and I talked myself into a job in an industry that
was brand new. And so I was the first lawyer that did almost any deal with any band or
record label or movie company or television or sports league. And the business teams I
supported as their lawyer, we put together all of these business models. I still see them
coming back to be this day. So that was at a company called RealNetworks. And when I
left there, I didn't decide to start my own law firm. It sort of inadvertently started it
because a lot of the executives at Real had gone off to start other really amazing
companies. And I got invited to help them with their legal.
[00:04:08] Very nice. Well, you talked about being a serial entrepreneur. And what does
that mean for you?
[00:04:14] Well, I'll give you a good example.
[00:04:17] So what happened was I was in school, I was at University Washington and I
was a resident advisor. And one of our responsibilities as R.A. was to put on some sort
of program. And I put on concerts because I loved music and I wanted to see bands that
I couldn't see.
[00:04:32] And so my friend from high school was the bass player for first thought. And I
had first thought play because they were a band. I knew how to get a hold of.
[00:04:42] And I had The Posies and I had a bunch of other bands in Seattle that maybe
people nationwide might not know, but at the time were sort of the incubators of bands
that they do know now. And I ended up meeting the management company that
managed them and the production company that dealt sound. And that spurred almost a
seven, eight year career in music, working for music management, working four clubs
where I would run booking and promotions. And really, that was my first business. And it
started when I was in college.
[00:05:13] And then what inspired you to shift gears and go back to law school?
[00:05:19] Well, that was because even though I didn't work for some of the biggest
bands in the world at the time when I was there, it takes a long time, as we all know in
the music industry, for any band to make money. So the management company wasn't
necessarily profitable or able to really compensate a lot of us. So I had all these odd
jobs and all these different things that I was doing to make money. And I realized that
some of the bands didn't always do what I wanted them to do.
[00:05:45] So I thought if my if I'm hitchen my train to a bunch of artists, I should be in a
better position where I can actually pay my rent. And that was really what started it. And
I had a series of events that led me to just sort of. Back away for a year. And I I ended
up working at a naturopathic medical school doing not really an agent five job, which I
had never had. I played volleyball, got in the best shape of my life and Saidy for the
Elsah. And it was awesome. And I was actually teaching at the Art Institute. The Art
Institute had a program, a music video program, and they hired me for some reason to
teach artist management and concert production. At age like 22. I think, though, that
was my big paying gig for a couple of years. And I always brought in the only lawyer at
the time in Seattle that had any real music background, entertainment background that
was respected. And he would come in and do my lecture every quarter on the legalities
and he would take me to lunch afterwards because, you know, he could afford to go
somewhere good in Seattle and he would beg me to go to law school so he could hire
me. And so that's how I decide I got in my brain that I would do it. But I actually didn't
tell anyone, including my family, that I was taking the Elsah and that I took it. And then I
applied and got into school and got a scholarship to see LRU. And that's when I told
everybody that I was going to law school. And it shocked everybody.
[00:07:13] So you've had a very eclectic path, career path. And it's not I wouldn't
describe it as traditional. And would you recommend that to anyone?
[00:07:26] Well, I think that everybody has a different tolerance for risk. And for me,
there's always been, I guess, this thing inside me that, well, actually would rely upon my
gut to tell me what I want to do. Like what my heart felt was the right thing to do. And
luckily, I you know, I had some support from my parents in doing that in that they never
really batted an eye. That, for instance, I went to try to make a career out of music for so
long, even though I'd been to a four year college and got a degree in advertising. So I
guess I always marched to the beat of my own drummer. And I tend to gravitate toward
people who are more entrepreneurial. And I think that that's a difference between if you
are, you're not entrepreneurial. But it's not everybody's cup of tea. But it is one of those
things where you do have to believe in yourself and soldier on through probably a lot
more obstacles or maybe different obstacles. If you take a more traditional career path
and go work save for a big company like an Amazon or Microsoft, then you're
navigating, you know, corporate waters which are different and not maybe any less
challenging. Just different challenges.
[00:08:37] Yeah. You hear a lot of entrepreneurs say, man, if I knew then what I know
now, I don't know that I would have started this. But that doesn't mean that I'm not
happy to be here.
[00:08:47] Oh, sure. I mean, my husband and I decided to open an Irish pub. He's Irish.
He actually is Irish with it comes with an accent and everything. And his family came
into town. We're like, oh, you know, we'd be great. We'll retire and open an Irish pub.
And, you know, six months later, we had our first puppy and we were walking him down
on LCI Beach in a storefront came up and we're like, oh, we should put an Irish pub in
there. So we put up a business plan. And the next thing you know, we got the lease and
suddenly we ran an Irish pub for eleven years, you know, and I don't know that ever.
[00:09:21] But both of us do. And that's, you know, it was sort of a testament to run a
business with your husband. And I don't know that either of us would do that again. But
it's crazy. I mean, it's crazy to think that, you know, that's my mindset. That's his
mindset. But it's not everybody's a lot of people told us we were nuts and they were
right, of course, because running a restaurant in Seattle studies. But yet for eleven
years, we managed to sell it. You know, somebody bought it from us. And that's a good
outcome in any business as we're able to sell it.
[00:09:50] Oh, for sure. So what is a recent professional or personal win you'd like to tell
us about?
[00:09:57] Well, I think what I'm super excited about is that I am about to launch my own
podcast. Tell me by. No. So I have had the great fortune of being involved in a lot of
different movements in Seattle. One, of course, being the music movement, which I told
you about earlier than we met. And then the technology movement.
[00:10:20] And now just being a lawyer and all the different companies that I work with
that are also changing lives. And so I decided I wanted to spend time talking to business
bad asses. And so my podcast is called The Lawyer Who Rocks, and I'm starting it out
with twelve amazing entrepreneurs and CEOs of companies that are just really
changing how we operate in the world in various different fronts, from music to
technology to media.
[00:10:52] Wow. When does that. When does it launch? Or is it launched already? Is
launching in January. It's exciting.
[00:11:00] So, yeah, we'll be. It'll be posted on my law firms website, which is H.M., L.G.
Law dot com. And we will also be wherever podcasts are hurt. And I wanted to put a
shout out to f bomb. F bomb is where we ran into each other again, which was
awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And a fellow F bomber is producing it. How large media.
[00:11:21] Yes. I actually take my eye. I took a podcasting class from Tina of March.
Right. And she's amazing. Yeah. Tina, thank you. And for your listeners. I'll make sure
that there is a link in this podcast to Jillian's new podcast. Oh, that's awesome.
[00:11:37] So listeners and Sparkasse know that this is the point where we turn to the
dark side. Périgord is here, a recent professional or personal struggle that you'd like to
share with us.
[00:11:50] You know, it's not necessarily recent, but I have a struggle that really shaped
sort of JOLINE 3.0 or whatever, whoever I'm at now. And that was the realization that
you have to believe in your gut, in yourself. And when I didn't do that, I got myself into a
very challenging situation, because when I first started the firm, it was me. And I plan to
build it out. And I was convinced by somebody that I should partner up with, someone
that I partnered with, someone who I didn't know very well, and who is supposedly the
me, also me. And it turned out that they weren't.
[00:12:32] And it ended up being kind of a, you know, a real challenge to get out of it
with a sense of professionalism and dignity that I like to exhibit. And it really built every
part of my career on when you're not receiving that from the other side. So that, for me,
was a multi-year challenge just to extricate myself from that relationship. But it has
driven me sense in the sense that I am very much a believer in, you know, lifting people
up and building people on their careers. And it also had I continued on in that
partnership, I would never be where I am today. So that's that's the good thing. I mean, I
was able to then build the firm into the vision that I really, truly had in the beginning,
even though I had a little hiccup along the way.
[00:13:19] Well, and what advice would you give to people considering going into
partnerships?
[00:13:24] You know, this is just it's funny because I've heard this come from so many
people. And so hopefully someone will actually listen is, you know, you can't really
represent yourself. And I think that when you're a lawyer, you sometimes think, oh, well,
I can put together my own corporate documentation. I can do that. And, you know, it'll
be fine. But when you actually do it yourself, it actually opens yourself up to a lot more
scrutiny on how things are drafted. So, for instance, every little, you know, item in that
operating agreement got fought over because we had different interpretations of it. And
I wrote it. So that was a problem, you know. And so I wish that I had just spent a couple
of thousand dollars to have another lawyer who is objective that wasn't part of this
company. Right. That would have saved probably a year of arbitration.
[00:14:15] Wow. Yeah. So what do you think you learned as as a lawyer, as a leader
from this experience?
[00:14:23] It made me amazing, mazing business person, but it made me realize and
this is you know, why I like to be in-house advisor for all the different legal matters for
companies. Is that litigation? It can feel kind of good to, like, yell at someone or sort of
get your digs in. But it is a long, arduous process that takes away your emotions and
your focus on your business. And so what we try to do, like all of me and my team with
our businesses that we represent, is we really try to come up with operational and
proactive ways, including, you know, working with other partners, their partners and
putting deals in place that really focus on the business and focus on trying to hammer
out all the possibilities of things that can happen in a way that's very simple and come
up with solutions to get out of things with little disruption to your business. I mean, that's
really it. If you're an entrepreneur, you need to be focusing on your business and
meeting whatever your business goals are, not having all these distractions and
litigation's distraction unless you really, really have to do it.
[00:15:31] So do you work with individuals or do you prefer more companies?
[00:15:35] Well, we work with people and companies. So it's really just anybody. We
work with a fortune, 10 companies to people that start a business in their basement. In
fact, one of our biggest clients were two brothers that started a game in their basement
and is now over one point four billion downloads. So know, it doesn't matter if you're in
your basement. Or if, you know, if you're an established company, but to work with us,
we really put together a plan. I like to call. All of us are lawyers. Plus, there's not
anybody in my law firm that hasn't run their own business or worked for a business. So
we were really business first and business focused and then make the law work to
achieve the business schools. And so we all work collaboratively and oversee basically
everything from corporate structure to getting ready for financing, whatever that means
to get ready to be revenue positive, to doing all the licensing, to doing all IP protection
from patents, trademarks to copyrights to employment. So we really do all of the things
that if you ever worked for a company and you have lawyers that are in that company,
we do that for companies. And so we're able to do that in a way that really helps
integrate with them. And the other thing that I'm really proud of is and this is why I want
to change how laws practice, is that law firms are such a business and they all have
been modeled on the same business model for all these years, which unfortunately, I
think takes away from how they're really able to provide service.
[00:17:10] So even though there's a lot of marketing messages about service, when
your business model isn't service oriented, it's always a disconnect. So people get very
scared to work with lawyers because if they call, they're gonna get, you know, oh,
there's going to be time where if they get a bill, they know one lawyer. But the next thing
you know, there's like 20 lawyers on the bill. They've never even met any. And that's
just how law firms are setup generally. And lawyers who go out from law firms to start
new law firms don't know any different. So they do the same thing. And when I decide to
do this, I was like, I want to look at all the different service models for any type of
service provider because we are a service provider. In fact, I have a service level
agreement for my law firm. Oh. And we'll get back to you. We will. We will work and
integrate with you. We will deliver products or, you know, contracts or whatever it is that
you need within a certain period of time. We will respond back to you in email or text or
whatever. I think that's superimportant because it's a relationship ultimately. And that's I
think why now, after a decade of having each MLG, we have clients that are with us and
we love them and they don't leave and we don't want them to leave because we have
such a great relationship.
[00:18:20] It sends a steady you've really taken a business model and turned it on its
head.
[00:18:25] I think so. I would like more lawyers to do that. I think people would be better
served and lawyers would not get a bad name, as you know. I know that we have bad
names, lawyers. Some people make jokes about us and there's a good reason for it.
And, you know, I'm trying to change that.
[00:18:40] Well, speaking of trying to change something, this is the I am Virago podcast,
and I am passionate about changing the meaning of Virago. And so what makes you.
[00:18:52] Rago So years and years ago when I was working in music and I remember
I, I had the great opportunity and the great fortune to work with one of Seattle's biggest
treasures. Her name is Susan Silver, and she managed Soundgarden and Alice in
Chains and screaming trees. And I got to work for her and she mentored me. And I
remember coming in from a particularly probably rough night, maybe some tour
manager yelled at me or something. But I remember walking in and saying, that person
called me a bitch. And she goes, If you're 21 years old and someone's calling you a
bitch, you're doing something right. And I've always kept that in my mind's eye.
Somebody calls me a bitch and I can stand by behind my own integrity. I know who I am
inside. I know what my intentions are. I believe in abundance for everybody. And I'm
just, you know, I'm gonna do my very best for the people that I'm working for. And that
makes me a bitch.
[00:19:49] So be so be it. And hold the line and hold our line. That just makes me all
warm and fuzzy inside.
[00:19:56] So we're getting towards the end, which is sad. What question do you wish I
would have asked you that I didn't.
[00:20:07] Maybe. What does the future hold? So, Jolene, what does the future hold? I
have a vision, Janice. Tell me a vision.
[00:20:16] My vision is I look around me right now and I didn't plan it this way. But I will
look around and the team that I built a full time people are all amazing, powerful women.
So my law firm is very female predominant. And I again, I've worked with dudes my
whole life. I love dudes. Dudes will still work here. And I have a couple of really great
guys that work with us. But one thing I would really love is I would love a lot of women
who are in the law to be empowered to do what I'm doing. And I'm hoping within the
next year or two to create either a uber firm, almost like an Amazon firm on Amazon, the
famous Seattle. But Amazon, awesome, strong women. You know, putting forth legal
integrity and in the type of business model that I've created.
[00:21:07] I'd love to make that expanded and bring more people to the fold and really
take over some of the things that I think need changing in corporate financing in IP. And
in just overall general business strategy, I think that we bring a lot to the table. We're
able to multitask and we bring a really great voice. And with that, hopefully it begets
wealth, which means you can reinvest. And we can really, you know, build a network of
women businesses that are profitable and are taken seriously.
[00:21:40] That is an amazing vision.
[00:21:42] And I have goose bumps. Make it happen, sister. I'm on it.
[00:21:49] Thank you so much for taking time out of. I know a very busy schedule to do
this podcast, and it is such a pleasure to reconnect. And Adam, I wish you the best and
good luck with your podcast. Thank you so much, Janice. And thanks for having me.
[00:22:07] Thank you, my Viragos, for listening to the I Am Virago podcast. Check out new episodes every Tuesday. If you have ideas or suggestions of whom you'd like to hear from on this podcast, go to IAmVirago.com and leave a message. And remember, you are Virago.