In this episode meet Emmanuelle Verhagen. She spent much of her life trapped in a man's body and has finally found freedom as a woman. She has the unique experience of navigating the world as a man and as a woman. Hear her story of self-discovery, courage and what leadership means to her.
Originally published Sep 25, 2018
In this episode meet Emmanuelle Verhagen. She spent much of her life trapped in a man's body and has finally found freedom as a woman. She has the unique experience of navigating the world as a man and as a woman. Hear her story of self-discovery, courage, and what leadership means to her.
Janice Lichtenwaldt: [00:00:09] Welcome back to the I Am Virago podcast, where we get real about the struggle. Drop the occasional F-bomb and hear how amazing Virago women imperfectly navigate the world around them.
JL: [00:00:20] Today's guest, Emmanuelle Verhagen, is inspiring on so many levels. She's passionate about bringing the concept of Heartful Leadership to the world. She had successfully navigated the world of marketing, operations, and research, and she had the perfect life until she realized she was living a lie. She was a woman trapped in a man's body. To live her authenticity required great courage and sacrifice. Hear her unique perspective of experiencing the business world as both a man and a woman and what it's like to be a trans woman in the world today.
JL: [00:00:54] Grab that cup of ambition and let's get started.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:00:58] I am Emmanuelle Verhagen as they say in Dutch. And to pay my bills, I create adult learning experiences. My Passion is leadership. Leadership from the heart. It's what I call heartful leadership.
JL: [00:01:12] Heartful leadership. Can you tell me a little more about that?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:01:15] As life progressed, I have started to think about what is leadership. And I've completed a number of roles in various positions. Small companies, large companies, listed companies had my own company. So I had a lot of leadership exposure. And I just try to figure out, you know, what is leadership really? And I figured out it's not something you can learn as something from a book. It's something you need to figure out what it is. And I experienced works best is when you start leading from your heart with all the authentic [00:01:44] and [?] being [00:01:45] you are. And when I look around, there's not much or not enough of that around today. And our world, so much needs much more heart there. And that's what I want to do.
JL: [00:01:56] I wish you much luck in that because we definitely need it. So tell me a little bit about the work that you do.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:02:02] The work that I do is mainly around creating workshops about adults learning experiences. So I create workshops and retreats or longer programs. And one on one coaching, which is also a learning experience. It can be of any kind. Anything that that helps people learn how to get in life, get in touch with other people. What is leadership? What is their leadership? When they are in leadership and they're already far along the path, amplify it dramatically all. I love the drama part of that. [The drama.] The drama. I make it huge.
JL: [00:02:34] Very nice. So can you tell me about a recent professional or personal win?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:02:41] Yeah, I've been long holding off from one of my target groups. My safety zone is working with people in business with small and medium enterprises. That's my safety zone. Because I've been there. So that's like easy. And I'm- I'm a transgender person, a trans woman. And I tried to avoid doing anything within the community because I was too busy doing other stuff and I was doing too much important stuff. And recently I started getting in touch with a lot of people that pointed me towards my authenticity, which is basically, you know, as a trans woman. That's my authenticity. I'm like, you know when I talk about authenticity I should be like, really own it. So what happened in the last couple of weeks? I started designing a leadership program for trans people with a very short introduction kind of fundamentals thing, one-day thing, and then followed with a whole program of about six months for retreats with lots of calls in the middle and exercises and stuff to do in the middle, online stuff. And we're trying to put that into the world. We haven't got a fixed launching date, but it's going to be somewhere in November around the Transgender Day of Remembrance. It's like a nice starting point for us to kick into a positive perspective. So that's one thing that's there. And another note I've been exploring-I had an interesting talk with a Tantra yoga teacher from mine, the creator, a body-oriented program for trans people to really dive into what's the physicality and what's the gift of who we are- from the basics.
JL: [00:04:09] So with both of these programs, what is your hoped-for outcome? What's the stake?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:04:15] The stake is about offering tools to the community to step up in their daily lives. Because one thing I learned in my transition and my work I'm doing is that as a trans person there's this quality of bridging, of being able to work between two worlds. Both the male and the female world, and feel at home in both of them. I think kind of like emulates that togetherness and bring into a woman's' world a masculine energy or masculine polarity and vice versa. Bring softness into masculine worlds, bring up that feminine power into a masculine world, and being accepted in that role.
JL: [00:04:50] You are in a unique position [Yeah.] to have experienced the business world as a man. And now to experience the business world as a woman. Have you seen a difference?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:05:04] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's-it's fascinating, actually, to have been in both parts. I used to be one of the boys. And part of the boys' gang that control everything and order people around. And then when I gave up, to say that, give that privilege-that male privilege away? Well, people declared me crazy to start with. But, you know, when you're born a woman, you're born a woman. That's who you are. So it's not like giving away or choosing whatever you want or not want. It's who you are and switching sides to say you got me into a different camp. But with all the things I as a man used to behave, I experienced from the other side, I'm like, what the hell? [Oh, oh!] What the heck. [Yeah.] Is this up and downside because there's up and downsize in both worlds. There's also a downside in women's.
[00:05:56] There's a downside in a man's world. In a man's world where you are not playing at par or not playing the game as it's supposed to be played. And not be-if you're not playing to be a top dog, you're in trouble as a man. In a woman's world, it's different, but there's also that kind of structure being tested and where do you stand, you know. So it works both ways. But, yeah.
JL: [00:06:14] And what are you taking away from that particular experience about the difference between how men and women are treated?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:06:21] We tend to go towards or to make assumptions about people because someone is a man or a woman. There is a possibility in one way or another. We have a whole set of things we think about them. We assume that you know, this man is that, that and that. It's very stereotypical. The reality is it's always different. And what we do is we don't see the people as they are. What it taught me is like that shock from my stereotypical male's world going to a stereotypical woman's world, my stereotypes I had for my transition where I would end as a woman are completely different. Or someone different now than what I expected to be. Much better, much different, much richer, much whatever it is. It's about dropping the stereotypes and taking it one step further. And in everything, I'm doing in my leadership and heartful leadership thing, which is the front side for me. There's a backside to that. And it's the impact of leadership and the impact site where I work on and I love playing with is the inclusion part. And inclusion is all about dropping the assumptions. Who cares the person who is in front of you, whatever, or whoever, he or she is.
JL: [00:07:24] So I'm curious. Curiosity is so important in every aspect of life. I know that there are people who are uncomfortable talking to or approaching trans people because they just don't- they don't know- they're ignorant of what's going on. They don't know what to ask. They're afraid that they're going to use the wrong pronouns. What advice do you have for people who have trans people in their life and want to connect with them but are unsure how to?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:07:54] Trans people are human beings like everyone. There's nothing strange about that. They're very approachable, as far as I know at least. It's just reaching out and starting the conversation. And it's okay to be not aware. It's one of those things as a trans person, from my perspective, I know that people have questions about that. I'm just not there to preempt the question. If people ask the question, I'm happy to talk about it. I do know that I know a lot about those things and I do know is all the questions about it. But if they're not asked then I'm not trying to promote anything.
[00:08:26] It's like- it's who I am and my life is a normal life for me. This might seemed bizarre on the outside for other people, but it's fine. Get curious about it and just ask. I can handle that. And I think every trans person can handle that. It's a genuine curiosity that people have towards each other. That's what works and that's what built authenticity and what builds relationships in the end. So what I find out is everybody wants to be heard one way or another and everybody has their own story. No, no one is no one's normal, actually. [No. No!] In my years of coaching and doing stuff from, like, I've never met a normal or standard person. We're all different.
JL: [00:09:06] We're all different. And we just want to be seen. [Yeah. Absolutely.] So listeners of this podcast know that I like to go to the dark side. Is there a professional or personal struggle that you're currently dealing with.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:09:20] When I look at my CV and the stuff in my life I'm like this is a big success story. I was a leader in a big company and a leader with two companies on my own. And I'm on my own and the struggle is still present. How do I get my regeneration going? How do I really connect with people? How do I get people to my workshops? And I get lost in that. I'm a marketing specialist-I'm supposed to be.
JL: [00:09:45] I like that. You're supposed to be? You are. You are.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:09:50] Yeah. Yes- and- I used to call consult Blue-Chip companies on market strategies. And then across Southeast Asia. How do I position my brand in seven markets? And how do I connect with people? That's my thing. And now I'm doing this for myself. I'm lost. THow do I do this for my own brand? And that's a struggle.
JL: [00:10:10] And what are- you have to figure out how to do it. So what are you doing to help yourself get to where you need to be?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:10:17] It took me a while to get there. Initially, I was like, I'm a marketeer, so I have to figure it out myself. At a certain point, I caught myself following the Facebook tutorials and videos on how to make Facebook advertising work and everything. And after a while, I'm like, no, I can't. This isn't my thing. I just need to ask help and admit that how good a strategist I may be- I just suck at doing it.
JL: [00:10:44] (Laughter) So you're not necessarily an implementer.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:10:46] Yeah. It's like it's beyond me. I'm like, I don't get it. [Yeah.] And one, admitting that to myself, you know, gosh, I really failed at doing that. And then recovering is well, let's ask for help now. To people who know something about it.
JL: [00:11:00] I want to- I want to underline that, asking for help. It's actually a sign of strength. In my opinion, that when we admit and raise our hand and say, I'm not good at this or I don't want to be good at this.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:11:12] You're absolutely right. And what I learned in asking help is it just opens so many doors I would never have expected. I meeting plenty of new people who are lining up to work with me on my course. I'm like-I never expected that.
JL: [00:11:25] The delight on your face. I wish the folks listening could see. So it sounds like you've been doing a lot of personal work and personal development, professional development work. What is the one area that you're focusing on right now and what are you doing about improving that area or digging deeper in that area?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:11:45] One of the things I decide for myself in a recent is like I'll be going on a soul vacation, soul-cation, whatever you call that, at least once a year. A week off, I'm going offline, off-grid, off everything and doing something which is deeper than what I normally do.
[00:12:03] So one of the things which is on my list. I would love to do a vision quest in the desert or in the mountains. But really a deep and long one. Being on my own for a couple of days and away from everything and take that as a starting point. There's also inspiration I want to do coming back to as transgender things. I spend some time developing or designing a workshop in my leadership retreats. And for that, I spent time in Albuquerque, Colorado, New Mexico, the Four Corners area. And I spent some time on my own driving around, going up the mountains, exploring whatever is there. And I really enjoyed that. I feel very connected to the area for some reason or another. And it made me realize that there is within Native American cultures, within certain tribes or clans, there is- there is this there's ambivalence. But in a tribe or within the clan where people can live in the role or the gender role of the other gender. So there's this kind of fluidity and I'm very curious to dive into that, explore that's further. To see how that worked in society because maybe the story I make up for myself maybe is learning we can all have as a society today from what was there.
JL: [00:13:07] Oh, that sounds really juicy and fun and exciting.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:13:11] Yeah. It's exciting when I think about it. Like, yeah, it's like a new mission coming up, like a quest almost.
JL: [00:13:16] Yeah. Yeah. But one of the things that you said early on when we first start talking about this is that you're kind of on a break. And I want to just explore that a little bit. Because, you know, we feed each other with all this new information, but there has to be time for the integration. And it's okay to hit pause and deepen that learning. And so in deepening that learning, you've done all the work. What are you doing to deepen the learning?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:13:43] Mm-hmm. That's a good question. Well, doing is a combination of things. When I started doing is meditating in the morning, which I had never done-well up to six months ago, I'd never done that. And yet it's not a rule. So I try to when I feel like it, I'll do that. Take time off. I start to cycle again because that's also for me time off in my brain, going out in nature on my bicycle. And it's the way to zero out from the stuff which is happening around continuously on social media or Internet stuff. You got your family, everything around you. It's like I'm zeroing out. I don't have a cell phone with me. I have nothing with me. Some physically unavailable in the world. I'm just there with my bike.
[00:14:28] I love to connect with people and figure out ways to connect with people. And one thing I start to realize as it all starts with your own community and close by, the closer you get and I start to reach out within the community of my living actually- settled into a very diverse community. But never really took the time to talk to people. And so now I take time at least once a week I try to meet someone new in my neighborhood and have a chat with them. Just about, you know, nothing. About the weather, about the birds, the thing about why the hell are we here.
JL: [00:15:01] And what have you discovered from doing that?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:15:04] That I feel much more at home now. Home is very functional. It's like a place I live in. During my transition, my first concern was having a safe place. Being safe somewhere where I could transition. And so the area I chose was a very multicultural area. A lot of people from all backgrounds together, which made me feel very safe and protected. Protection became very important initially. So now at this station, I switch around like I'm owning myself wherever I stand in the world. Owning that spot. What it feels like now is like I'm started building from home and extending my home into a bigger family. It's not me and my partner. It's like us, then the world and everything around that.
JL: [00:15:46] You have a great deal of life experience, probably you double or triple what the average person has given all that you've- your courage in accepting who you are and taking steps to fully express that. And it's very impressive. What advice would you have for young women going into the workplace or young people in general? What advice would you give them?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:16:12] Well, thank you. I always see myself as having big, huge experiences. I think what I felt key in everything I did and the path tried to follow is stay close in contact with myself, really trying to feel- I almost meant to say what I want- but it's not so much want, wanting. It's more a longing. It's not always defined, but being really true about where you stand and have a good feel for that. I start from there and make choices based on that connection with yourself. And I think that the thing to work on is to work on the connection with yourself, to really feel into that and built that. And you start from there and be mindful. Think about transition. Some never crossed my mind now what I learned from that, and being in two worlds, is how important language is. The words we choose to bring into the world do change things. And there's a quality of choosing how we want to say something, because that alters the dynamic for somebody else, too. To use very masculine words, there's going to be masculine energy around. And the question is, do you want that?
JL: [00:17:20] Because, well, in some cases you would want a masculine energy in a space. And sometimes you might want to feminine energy in the space. And so you get to choose, is what you're saying.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:17:28] Yes. You get to choose. But you also have to be mindful of what your culture around you is doing and how you're impacting that and how much you play with it. And I'll give you an example from Belgium, which- which struck me a lot. Dutch language has a quality that older romantic languages have, and Latin languages, is have where you have words with a male and a female version. Like Spanish has also the male and the female version of the same word. There was a movement in the Dutch language a couple years ago that we decided to make our life easier. We would only stick to the male version of the word. So whatever function title you have, it's always going to be masculine. So for instance the word doctor, a medical doctor. Doctor and the feminine version is doctoress. From now on, it's normal that all female doctors are called doctor and the community is cut out of the system completely. Which I find very terrifying because you kick out a feminine part of you and everything becomes very masculine. Which I feel goes towards a certain roughness in society and there's no counterbalance any more somewhere. It's a small example, but those kinds of things do matter I feel. And it does matter in how you described yourself because as a woman, you-you have to use a masculine word to define yourself. Where does that put you?
JL: [00:18:42] Well, that leads me to virago, the word that we're trying to reclaim for women that says that you are powerful, compassionate, wise, and you are virago. And it's specifically for women. What makes you a virago?
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:18:59] Oh, gosh. What makes me virago? It's the power of like a lighthouse in the sea. It's like you make a stand for something and you start from there. Whatever stand it is. It's something you really believe in as an individual, as a woman. But it goes with or against the flow. It doesn't matter. You just know and take your stand for what you know to be true. That, for me, is the virago part. And where I took my biggest stand of all stands I did. It's from my transition, I had on paper a normal life. But it just wasn't me. It was not authentic. It was everything I wasn't.
[00:19:33] It was everything I was taught to be, but not owning me. It was safe. It was comfortable. I had everything I wanted and needed. I was picture-perfect in society. Fast cars, beautiful partner, beautiful everything. Great house and I said, like, this is not me. And that was my standing up for authenticity, for who I was and accepting what was within me. Accepting that the woman which was hiding in the male body somewhere. Which was very scary for me to get into that and even consider that to be true. But then owning it and stepping into that got me where I am today. I think that that was my virago moment. And knowing the effect of that was going against everything I was taught, everything I saw, I lost basically everything. I lost my partner, house, my friends, and I had to start again. But that's the price I pay for that. And thank God, I'll pay again.
JL: [00:20:28] That-just the vast amount of courage that you have displayed is inspiring.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:20:33] [softly] Thank you.
JL: [00:20:38] So we're ending and near the end of the interview, this is where I like to ask my guests. What do you wish I would have asked you that I didn't.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:20:47] I think the question you didn't ask is, how can I make my movement bigger and larger? Because it's about change for me. It's about creating movement and making people step up to their authenticity. Own their own leadership, discover what is possible, and create a tidal wave of change where heart goes first. And it's always heart first. It's leading heart forward every day again and questioning that. And it's not about only about you, it's about how can you create a world for everybody around you? Put your heart forward. That is the key question.
[00:21:21] And making it a choice every day.,
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:21:23] Every day. Waking up, I'm like, I'm going to lead this world heart forward.
JL: [00:21:29] Just imagine what the world would be like.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:21:31] Yeah, imagine.
JL: [00:21:33] Emmanuel, it has been such an honor and a privilege to know you, and to have you on this podcast. Thank you so very much.
Emmanuelle Verhagen: [00:21:41] Thank you, Janice. You're amazing. And I love your movement you're creating. I'm on the sidelines and I'm cheering you on.
JL: [00:21:47] Thank you. Thank you. Ok. We'll talk again soon.
Janice Lichtenwaldt: [00:22:11] Thank you, my Viragos, for listening to the I Am Virago podcast. Check out new episodes every Tuesday. If you have ideas or suggestions of who'd you'd like to hear from on this podcast, go to www.IAmVirago.com and leave a message. And remember, you are a Virago.