Jennifer Kenny is my first guest who was actually threatened with the title "virago" growing up in her native Ireland. She claimed the moniker and is now a champion for women’s empowerment around the globe. She has leveraged a career in STEM and consulting at the world’s largest firms to be an author, lecturer, and strategic consultant at the intersection of technology, innovation, and women’s leadership. Her new book, STAND UP: GROUNDBREAKING WAYS TO SPEAK YOUR VALUE AS A WOMEN LEADER comes out in February 2019.
Originally published Jan 22, 2019
Transcript link (uncorrected machine translation)
Jennifer Kenny is my first guest who was actually threatened with the title "virago" growing up in her native Ireland. She claimed the moniker and is now a champion for women’s empowerment around the globe. She has leveraged a career in STEM and consulting at the world’s largest firms to be an author, lecturer, and strategic consultant at the intersection of technology, innovation, and women’s leadership. Her new book, STAND UP: GROUNDBREAKING WAYS TO SPEAK YOUR VALUE AS A WOMEN LEADER comes out in February 2019.
[00:00:09] Welcome back to the I Am Virago podcast, where we get real about the struggle, drop the occasional F-bomb, and hear how amazing Virago women imperfectly navigate the world around them.
[00:00:19] Today's guest, Jennifer Kenny, is my first guest who is actually labeled a
virago growing up. She started a career in engineering geology and at the age of 25
was told, we like to keep our women in the office due to her virago nature. Jennifer
looked at her boss and said, Well, this woman quits and does her quest to help
empower women was born. Today, Jennifer is an author, lecturer and strategic
consultant at the intersection of technology, innovation and women's leadership with a
focus on gender balance. Her new book, Stand Up Groundbreaking Ways to Speak
Your Value as a Woman Leader, releases next month. Hear her story of growing up in
Ireland, fighting gender stereotypes and turning struggle into opportunity. So grab that
cup of ambition and let's get started.
[00:01:09] My name is Jennifer Kenney. I have, after 25, almost 30 years, figured out a
way to pay the bills by doing what I'm passionate about. Which has been a lifelong
project. So right now, I pay the bills by doing what I'm passionate about. And what I'm
passionate about is accommodation at the intersection of three things technology,
innovation and women's leadership.
[00:01:33] Well, those are very small things that you've decided to tackle. What does
that intersection look like?
[00:01:41] So that intersection looks like I do public speaking, writing, mentoring,
coaching and facilitation at the intersection of all of those spaces. So I end up working
ideally with women in a lot of engineering and research and development organizations.
[00:01:57] I also work with men who lead women and want to be better assets. And I do
a lot of strategy work associated with all of that because my background is actually in
science and engineering and that's kind of where my people are.
[00:02:12] So when did you start out in one area?
[00:02:17] So this was part of why I was. Your podcast appeals to me. So The Virago,
because I was actually called a virago when I was a child by my father and by my
mother and by a number of my aunts and uncles.
[00:02:33] So I suspect it wasn't in a good way.
[00:02:36] No, it was not a good way. It was always, you know, Jenny, be careful. You
could be a virago. And so finally, when I was somewhere in my teens, I looked it up and
I thought, I actually know this to be over.
[00:02:51] I go, this is old. Good.
[00:02:53] So that's sort of set me on a path. And then when I stumbled across your
work, I thought, this lady gets this. I knew I needed to talk to you because what
happened is my undergraduate degree is in geology and chemistry. And then I ended
up doing a postgraduate degree in engineering geology. And I tried to work in that field
as a woman for about three years. And I mean, I obviously worked in there because I
was paying bills. But every time I tried to do more or get promoted or have more
opportunities, I was basically told no. We you know, we treat our women differently. And
in those days, it was more acceptable. It wasn't that they weren't going to get arrested
for it, let's say. And so that was my big challenge, was how do I keep doing the work
that I love doing in the STEM fields and continue to be a woman?
[00:03:44] I can't imagine how frustrating that was for you. And that that behavior still
happens today. But what was it like to be in when it was so overt? Did it? I just I that I
just I'm flabbergasted that that happened. So how did you feel in that moment?
[00:04:05] Well, a couple of things that I think the fact that it was more overt when it was
almost easier in a way because I knew what was going on and I could make a decision
pretty quickly based on this. Like, I wasn't living in hope when I wasn't being calm, so to
speak. They were just blunt about it. I mean, I had one job I was applying for straight out
of college, and they said, oh, no, we can't have a woman do this work because you
have to climb up on trucks to sample the produce coming in. And I was planning on
working in there in their lab. And so I knew Grace and I said to the guy because I
thought he was just confused and didn't think the women wore pants. And I said, but I
can wear pants. He said, no, we can't have you do that because women can't climb up
on trucks. So they have to pass. Obviously, I did not get the job and obviously I moved
onto other greater things. Let me say yes.
[00:04:57] And then the other one was I was working in England and I'm Irish, obviously,
by my accent. And the Irish people are very fond of butter. Let's put it to fight for your
dollars. And we sort of have, you know, the best butter in the world. So I'm in the
supermarkets and I wasn't earning enough money to pay for butter. And I thought, well,
this is completely unacceptable. Outwits need to earn more money. So I went into my
boss and I said, I'd like to do more fieldwork, please, because you make more money
doing field work when you're working in geology. And he sat back in his chair, his arms
around his rather large stomach, and he said, we'd like to keep our women in the office.
[00:05:36] And I was so flabbergasted because I literally said at that point.
[00:05:42] Well, this woman quits. And I stood up and walked out the office. And I think
it was twenty five. That is amazing. Incompletion, fantasy, please. And fantasy. I was
25. My dad was dad's. My mom was struggling.
[00:05:57] I had two younger brothers and an older sister. I was living in a foreign
country on my own in a rented flat with a friend over a pub.
[00:06:05] And I called up my sister and I said, Hey, I'm in trouble. I my. To me. So you
could call it being a Baraga, we could call it being a hothead.
[00:06:18] Either way, I ended up then going into technology. I was very fortunate. I
ended up working for Ben Andersen Consulting, now Accenture. Yes. And that was the
beginning of my technology career. And I ended up getting the equivalent of a computer
science degree from Andersen. In those days. And it was fantastic. I mean, it just really
launched me. And I'm deeply grateful to this day.
[00:06:40] You are my hero. My hero. That is a great. And you stood up for your values.
Oh, absolutely. And this park has I mean, that's I'd like to really call out and spotlight
what what's going on. You stood up for your values, even though even though it put you
in a pretty precarious position. Yeah.
[00:07:01] And I think at twenty five, I'm not sure you think those things through that.
Well. Yeah. And you know, in hindsight I probably would have done the same thing. And
to this day I still continue to do the same thing. And obviously I had more resources
behind me and I'm not going to end up homeless as a result. But, you know, I think that
we don't take enough time to understand that we have a lot more room and permission
to stand up for our values than we assume we do.
[00:07:29] Yes, absolutely. I mean, I often hire people who have stories of having stood
up for their values because I know those people will stand up to me if I as a leader, I'm
doing something wrong or stupid. And they will be the ones who will come into my office
respectfully and say, hey, I don't agree with what you're doing and I think you're making
a mistake. And those people are invaluable.
[00:07:50] Absolutely. So maybe describe a little bit of a typical work assignment, a
typical engagement for you.
[00:07:58] So I do a couple of different things. So so there isn't really a typical one per
say because I'm working in a number of different domains.
[00:08:05] So a typical coaching program would be a six month program with a senior
executive, senior director, V.P. level, CEO level, who is responsible for a large division
or a large team, particularly associated with bringing new products, marker's new
technologies, new innovations. And a lot of those people have deep, deep and
wonderful technology expertise, but they don't necessarily have all of the translation
skills, capacities into the human side of things. So the basis of my work is really human
design thinking. So a lot of people who do product work are familiar with design thinking
for product development. I do design thinking for human mobilization. And so it lends
itself extremely well to partnering with people who are working in heavy tech
environments and who are interested in getting that balance between their human
design thinking and the product development design thinking to be able to really deliver
successful products. A friend of mine was talking to me the other day and said, I know
what you do. She said, you help people create things that don't yet exist. Yes, that's
what I do. That's my idea of fun. I love us. And most of the people who want to create
things that don't just exist are beautiful, fun people to work with anyway. So I just love
them.
[00:09:25] I wish the listeners could see your face. I mean, you are you are on fire.
You're doing great talking about it.
[00:09:31] And I know you give me 30 years to get to the point where I can I mean,
obviously, I've had, you know, wonderful things that I've done over the years that have
allowed me to to sort of integrate what I'm passionate about with what I do. But now I
get to do it full time all the time. But it's hard when it hasn't been it hasn't been a piece of
cake, so.
[00:09:53] Well, you know, I think given what you've just said, we might go a little
backwards from what we usually do here on the podcast to want to talk about a recent
professional or personal struggle.
[00:10:05] So professional or personal struggle. I spent, I think, the biggest struggle
actually that I faced probably in my entire career. And I faced some pretty hairy ones,
having told you about one of them already. And it gets better from there. My husband
works in oil and gas and natural gas, not purely fossil fuels, please. And he had been a
number of overseas assignments. And we have a daughter. So I was here and I had my
career and I was working way so he would go do his overseas assignments and then he
come back overseas. Assignment might be three to five years. So when our daughter
went to college, I committed to him that I would do one with him. So I quit my job and
we moved to Indonesia, to Jakarta. And I thought, no problem, I've got a job. You know,
why not get a job? No problem of loads of things I can offer people. I'll get a job. So I
actually got three jobs, but I could not get to work. So I went from being one day a CIO
with a multi-million dollar budgets and a large team Internet. Dean to study in my bare
feet, mopping two inches of water off the twenty third floor of an apartment where the
windows leaks.
[00:11:17] Oh my goodness. And it was interesting from there. I mean, I found other
volunteer things that I could do, even though you're not allowed to volunteer there as a
foreign person either. But what was hardest for me was love my work. I wasn't allowed
to work, even though there was lots of opportunity for me to contribute in that value. And
I was writing a book which was great. I took the time to do that. And it's coming out next
month. But it was very, very difficult to go from someone who's used to leading and who
loves growing and developing people. To somebody who sits in their office and does
research and doesn't talk to anyone other than, you know, the housekeeper and the
driver, because you have to have housekeepers and drivers over there. It's actually
legislations for foreigners. But so that was really, really tough. And living in a country
where women are not treated equally. Where your opinion is not valued. And it was it
was a huge learning for me, but very hard.
[00:12:17] I have to imagine it was hard for the ego.
[00:12:20] Oh, hugely hard. Hugely hard for my ego. And but really valuable in terms of
if your ego is what's driving you. You're never going to find that place of balance and
happiness. Now, I'm not saying I found just because if I didn't, I would, you know, be
living on another planet.
[00:12:39] But at least I have a better sense of what that is. And I have a better sense of
who I am and what I am about. That grounds me more and centers me more and allows
me to be able to do more courageous and ambitious things because I am learning to
care less about what society thinks, what other people think.
[00:13:00] Yes, that makes me excited. So my silver lining. Yes, yes. Very, very
positive. And I heard you dropped a little tidbit in there, which is you have a book
coming out next month.
[00:13:13] Yes, I do. Yeah. It's actually you can see the video. Those are the chapters
like behind me on the floor. I can see them.
[00:13:21] So tell me about that.
[00:13:22] So the underlying science behind all of the work that I do is human language
and cognition. And I worked with one of the leading thinkers in the space, a guy called
Fernando Flores, for about four years. And he's done some brilliant work in the area,
helping people see how they can design different futures for themselves, using
language from. From a speech perspective. Right. And so what I did was I took my
understanding and learning from there. And I focused just on how do women lead?
What are women doing when they're leading? That's different from what men are doing
and is equally and in some instances more valuable than what men are doing. Now, I'm
not saying all women and all men, obviously, because we all say sort of a spectrum. But
I'm a firm believer and you get to play on the spectrum where everything is you choose.
But for the purposes of understanding this, if you consider that everything we know
about leadership, we humanity know about leadership today was designed by men for
men sometime in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and women came late to the game. And we're
now all trying to fit in and in a lot of instances, behave like men in order to be able to
lead. And I've never been comfortable with that. I've never been interested in doing that.
And I once I realized what the game was, I pulled back and said, I do not want to play
this game. So what I'm interested in doing is expanding our understanding, humanity's
understanding of leadership to where women and men are equally valued in leadership.
And we actually amplify each other rather than have this sort of ongoing gender, you
know, battle of the sexes, which is such rubbish, and that we get to stand in our own
power and our own excellence, which is desperately needed in the world today.
[00:15:05] Oh, yes. So what is the title?
[00:15:08] The title is called Stand-Up Groundbreaking Ways to Speak Your Value as a
woman leader.
[00:15:13] Oh, my God, I cannot wait. So it's coming out next month. Yeah. OK. So for
listeners of the podcast, when it comes out, I will make sure that we update all of our
information very quickly.
[00:15:26] Fantastic. Because here's what's happening, Janice. And this is why it's so
important is I've been running public workshops to sort of test my material and make
sure that it was resonating with people. And the responses I've gotten back like I'm not
a big crier, but the responses I've gotten back make me tear up. Women are saying I
think of myself differently as a leader. I realize that I've been listening demand in the
room when I should really be listening to both genders and in many cases listening to
women more.
[00:15:53] They launched internal leadership programs within their companies after a
one day workshop.
[00:15:58] So I'm now at the point where I just have to get this out because this is it's
changing women's lives, which is nothing matters more.
[00:16:06] Yeah. I'm excited to help promote and push your book. Thank you. A great
show. Thank you.
[00:16:13] It is that I helped to found Women's Leadership Group set a couple of large
companies and it is so necessary. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:23] It is.
[00:16:24] And the interesting thing about this work and what I'm working on now for this
year, because last year I took it out to the public and I've done some private ones and
the responses are very strong, is I want to continue to sell that work as work for
women's leadership groups, but I'm super interested in doing gender balanced groups
are doing men's groups and women's groups and then bringing them together inside
companies. Because one of the premises of this work is that we all have male allies and
friends and relatives, some partners or whatever, and we all know that they're good
people and they actually support us and want us to be successful. But for me, the
biggest issue is when people don't have a way of distinguishing something that is
happening, our quality or trade or value, they tend to ignore us and they tend to
undervalue us. Yeah. But if we can give men words to describe the magic that women
do when they're in meetings, they will engage with us differently and they want to
engage with us differently. It's not that they don't want to. They just have no way of
talking about us and understanding and valuing us and because they have no way of
talking about it at all.
[00:17:32] And also, do you think that recent events and the Metoo movement. I've read
articles where some men are afraid. They're like, I'm befuddled. I don't know. I don't
know how I'm supposed to behave. No, it just I think in some ways maybe a small
copout on their part. But and this could help to give them language that they need.
Yeah.
[00:17:51] Now, first of all, I agree with you. I think it is a small kelpies on their behalf.
[00:17:54] But I also can put myself in their shoes and understand that if they have
women who are dissatisfied and unhappy and, you know, are in a position where they
could feel preyed upon, which happens, that they would then feel nervous about that. I
totally get that. But it's the ability to be able to have conversations that I think is so
important. And I think giving people language to be able to value what women bring to
the table will change the dynamics of that game. I mean, obviously, there's a whole
category of overt sexual harassment. I'm not putting anything I'm saying in that
category. That's that's black and white. As far as I'm concerned. But but I think the
nervousness comes around right now because women are my team. If I make a joke or
I say something is going to be misinterpreted, you know, could it be wrong? What am I
doing? Am I'm gonna get into trouble? I think that we can actually help women be able
to stand in their own power more strongly and have less of those misunderstandings
happening. If men are also able to talk to them about the specifics of the value that
they're bringing from a leadership perspective and actually put words and language on
this.
[00:18:58] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I'd love to know what makes you a farrago.
[00:19:07] So I think it's really determination and persistence. A lot of us is. And it was
funny because I was working with a wonderful coaching time this morning and she said,
I want this position now because someone told me I can't have this. I am seeing myself
reflected back at me. So I think some of it is when you're told.
[00:19:32] No, you double down.
[00:19:34] Now, that has pros and cons because sometimes you double down. And it's
not really what you want and it's not really what's good for you. But you're more doing it
to prove a point. And I think we all need to be kind of cautious about it. But I think my
Varanus is I'm fairly outspoken. I speak my mind, I know my mind. And I don't take no
for an answer. Not not in a rude way. I mean, very much in a well, we just need to think
about it differently way. And I'm really hard worker and I'm persistent as hell. If I set my
mind on making something happen, I will make it happen that I have no doubt about.
[00:20:12] No doubt at all. So I.
[00:20:16] I could talk to you forever. This has been such a delightful conversation. To
what question do you wish I would have asked you that I didn't.
[00:20:24] So role models and inspiration because a beautiful thing happened to me
about two months ago.
[00:20:32] So Mary Robinson is the ex president, the first lady president violence and
anyone who's my age are two or three generations younger than me. And I'm fifty seven
and just kind of set the benchmark there. I would have viewed her as like a magical
person who did amazing things for our country and who is just got this incredible
presence. And she's now doing amazing work around sustainability and climate change.
Incredible work. And she's also Donehue a huge mantels work in the human rights
space. And she's. The elders, which anyone is listening. The elders are worth paying
attention to. With Nelson Mandela was there. He was the founder and a bunch of other
fantastic people. So she was over visiting California and very, very kindly, the consulate
here invited 20 of us to meet with her for supper.
[00:21:25] Oh, it was unbelievable. And all Irish women are second generation Irish
women in the Bay Area.
[00:21:33] And she basically said to us, why do you think you've all been successful?
[00:21:37] And first of all, he went, Oh, I've been successful. Yeah. And they went,
wonder why that is. A lot of people said, my parents, you know, my schooling, whatever.
And then I thought actually you had a huge role in this.
[00:21:53] So I think role models are really, really important to. My role model is and has
been since the time I was a child is Mary Robinson as somebody who is gracious, who
is presents herself very, very gently, who embodies a lot of very feminine qualities. And
yes, is this incredibly powerful, gracious leader who has made amazing things happen
in service of the rest of humanity.
[00:22:23] So you have role models that brought tears to my eyes. Thank you so much
for your time. And I am honored to have been able to spend this time with you.
[00:22:36] Yeah. What an absolute pleasure. You're wonderful at what you do. Oh, my
God, you're amazing.
[00:22:44] Thank you, my Viragos, for listening to the I Am Virago podcast. Check out new episodes every Tuesday. If you have ideas or suggestions of whom you'd like to hear from on this podcast, go to IAmVirago.com and leave a message. And remember, you are Virago.